Talk:Haifan Civil War

On Jezeraah

To Orion: Will Jezeraah‎‎ be allied with the Greater Morovian Independence Initiative, or will it fight on its own? I'm a little unclear on its position in this conflict, as you appear to indicate that it supports more than one side. Note that the Keltian League, which is conducting the blockade, represents the Bassarids. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newzimiagov (talk • contribs)

Reply: They are allied with the GMIN. The Keltian League statement was an oversight on my part and was removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orion (talk • contribs)

Regarding the aerial offensive; thus far I have tried to keep things within the realm of some grounded realism. But I find this aerial offensive to be a bit of god modding. And I speak from having over ten years experience in moderating forum-based war-games. The simple logistics employed to support an orbital bombardment would bankrupt the Pallisican economy overnight. You barely have enough infrastructure in place to support the air raids and leave a lot of logistical questions unanswered. Where did the fighter jets depart from? These have limited ranges. You gassed Vaeringheim and bombed Tel Amin and Lewisburg. That leaves you operating out of Abeis, Keybir-Aviv and Minab Azis. Jogi is too far to the south to operate any mission from. Realistically the only place you can launch an aerial assault from is Abeis and there has been no indication that the city had such capabilities. Further, you act as if Jezeraah has no defenses in place. Kindly scale back your assault to something more realistic. ~Signed Orion

I don't necessarily agree with all of your analysis but I respect your opinion on this matter. For the sake of maintaining this as a joint-project, I will change my approach on this issue. ~Signed Bijaro.

I appreciate your willingness to discuss the matter and revise things. Further, I recognize we did not plan anything out beforehand and have a rather uncoordinated approach to conducting battles. So far I have limited myself to using purely human soldiers with present-day technology and limitations. There are obvious boundaries not to be crossed (e.g. WMDs) and others that are less clear-cut. Perhaps this is something we should discuss in more detail before moving forward? ~Signed Orion

I think that we should discuss and where this is headed in terms of long term goals. Once we have agreed upon a basic end goal, we can decide the sorts of steps which will lead to that conclusion. With that said, I will support the claim that was submitted today provided that New Monoviaville is also recognized as disputed territory, out of respect for the Normarkians who inhabit the city. This is in my opinion a fair compromise. ~Signed Bijaro.

I've sent you a PM on Bastion so we can discuss this. ~Signed Orion

On Hoenn

This is an internal Bassarid conflict. Hoenn is not invited to play, and any efforts to involve it will be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newzimiagov (talk • contribs)

If you don't want Hoenn to get involved, then refrain from attempting to blockade Niijima, and stop interfering in the narrative of the Humanitarian Mission in former Caputia where its activity does not concern Haifa. Hālian (talk) 11:01, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

I am going to keep the blockade in place and I will continue to interfere exclusively in Hoenn's ability to participate in the mission. I support the Humanitarian Mission, just not your involvement in it. And you will not play a role in this conflict. Thanks and good luck. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newzimiagov (talk • contribs)

You cannot and will not autocratically dictate what I or any other player will, will not, may, or may not do with their own game pieces. This is called godmoding and crosses a blindingly bright red line in every RP community ever, including this one. Same with dictating what happens to Hoennese assets for me, which is called autohitting and crosses an equally bright equally red line in every RP community ever. Weigh this against the dream of your profits. Hālian (talk) 14:06, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

For context. --Continuator (talk) 13:57, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

How Bijaro thinks this will end: after intensifying and doubling down on his valiant display of narrative hardball, he will eventually convince his neighbours in the post-Caputian space to let the light of reason into their hearts. They will back down unconditionally and accept his direct and exclusive control of the regional narrative, even where it directly concerns their own nations while denying them a right of reply.

How this will actually end if things carry on as they are: his neighbours, being independent agents who operate as something more than shadows of the narcissistic reasoning of one man, and tending toward a negotiated blending of their own interests into enough of a community consensus to sustain a coherent narrative, will deem his repeated demonstrations of bad faith and narrative unilaterialism to be incompatible with their enjoyment of the hobby and beyond redemption by reason, thenceforth progressively demoting him and his creations to the status of narratively-quarantined laughing stock and community pariah as has already happened with Harald and Stormark.

Given how deep the hole is getting, now is probably a good time to stop digging. Yastreb (talk) 15:40, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

You'll note that there is an IC justification for the lack of Hoennese involvement in the conflict. The GMI simply didn't want their help/didn't believe they could offer support. Also, no proof of Kalgachian/Nova English support for blockade runners =/= no blockade runners. Team Green Sea, which you'll find on the WKTA page, captured and ransomed a decent number of blockade runners.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Newzimiagov (talk • contribs)

I limited the Jolly Froyalaner's shenanigans to a rumour because I already recognise the limits of my narrative stake in the matter. Your added wibble about "independent verification" (whatever that means) is redundant, and only serves to exhibit your petulant insecurity. By blockading Hoenn you not only exclude it from 'your' Haifan War, you interfere with its relation to the rest of the world including the bits that aren't yours. By definition this gives people who aren't you a legitimate interest in the blockade. Yastreb (talk) 05:03, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Also it cannot have escaped notice that (IC) Hoenn only sought to add itself onto the list of combatants after discovering, to its amusement, that one of the other combatants was attempting to blockade it over objections to its participation in the HMFC, far removed to the west from the civil war in Haifa. That makes it an interested party even if an inferred approach to the GMI was rebuffed (OOC: Hoenn chose the middle column as the remainder contained Bassarids and Alperkin as the only alternatives). As long as the blockade remains a thing Hoenn, and those who object to the attempts to blockade Hoenn, will remain parties to the narrative even if they have no earthly interest in the actual portion of the conflict occurring in Haifa. --Continuator (talk) 07:39, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

I would have added a fourth column if I could. Hālian (talk) 20:25, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

To Yastreb: I interfere with its relation to the rest of the world? You don't say. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newzimiagov (talk • contribs)

🤔 Hālian (talk) 20:25, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Before I interfered in your international relations you interfered in mine. Youre not too stupid to see this. Youre too petty and dishonest. This would not be an issue had you refrained from being a dick. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newzimiagov (talk • contribs)

On an OOC level I don't object to the interference per se - I object to the idea that nobody except you has the right to contribute to it as an event, or that the narrative can be credible in such circumstances. Even Admiral Jervis didn't have that kind of impunity.--Yastreb (talk) 17:06, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

I disagree with your assessment. Orion has been able to interfere with minimal input from me. I even supported his Jezeraah claim in my own territory, even though he didn't communicate with me about it. The idea that nobody except for me has the right to contribute is demonstrably false. I have even thrown Halian a bone with Team Green Sea, and he hasn't capitalized on it. He is evidently content to have the two of you complain on his behalf. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newzimiagov (talk • contribs)

I was out of town over the weekend, and as such have yet to notice the Team Green Sea thing. Regardless, I don't appreciate being dragged via godmode into this conflict, and especially loathe not only being autohit but also cockblocked from playing my own fucking nation. Retcon Hoenn out of this conflict entirely, blockade included, or a world war will result, and your odds of winning one don't look great. (Unrelatedly, if any of y'all are ever in my neck of the woods, we should hang out sometime.) Hālian (talk) 20:19, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

You know what I don't appreciate? Being banned from community forums by pathetic assholes who are too shy/afraid to talk out issues, who delight in talking shit about people without allowing them the chance to defend themselves, and who notably take extreme exception to issues which at the end of the day have nothing to do with them. Go ahead and talk shit about this reply - "Sweet Bassarid tears" and all that nonsense. I know you will, because I saw the hatred you were all spewing on the Caputia server. But do consider one question, who started this in the first place? Who blockaded whom? Would this conflict exist had you not chosen to be a pathetic, petty asshole? It seems to me that you made yourself my enemy. Not the other way around. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newzimiagov (talk • contribs)

To Continuator: Yep, I saw your venn diagram. Thanks for taking the time to do that. It is very impressive work.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Newzimiagov (talk • contribs)

Simple bottom line: if you dont want others to mess with your story, then don't mess with theirs. This includes you claiming the entirety of former Caputia as your backyard. It simply isn't. You control your lands on the MCS map, the green is free for all to write about. Jack (talk) 20:37, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Hi, Jack. You're making stuff up because you revel in indignation. I never claimed the entirety of former Caputia. Kindly butt out, or at the very least, focus on things that are actually happening.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Newzimiagov (talk • contribs)

Bijaro: nothing you say here, no technical or contextual aspect of the Haifan Civil War narrative, entitles you to claim a maritime blockade of someone else's turf while denying them or anyone else a say in the matter. In terms of creative authority, Hoenn's involvement in former Caputia and Hoenn's involvement in its own damn waters are two different things, and you're not fooling anybody by trying to conflate them. Nor is it a proportional response to Hālian's activity - he's never tried to disallow you anything so rudimentary as a presence in your own waters, as much as you might perceive that he has. Your mention of the latitude you've given Orion in Jezeerah only emphasises the personal grudge and double standard that's behind all this. Frankly I couldn't care less about what goes on in Haifa (truth be told, I always struggled to be enthusiastic about Caputia or Hamland) and you can do what you like there, but your claim of full ownership of the Hoenn blockade narrative is demonstrably idiotic.--Yastreb (talk) 05:06, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

"Hoenn retaliated by deploying F-8 Shrike fighter jets armed with air-to-surface munitions, as well as a regiment of flying majuu consisting of salamences, dragonites, charizards, and volcaronas, to hammer the blockade ships relentlessly over the following days. Though the majuu offensive provided an impressive spectacle which was spoken of for years after the fact, it proved ineffective in bringing an end to the Bassarid blockade. With this said, it was quickly discovered that surges in majuu aggression generally coincided with attempts by blockade runners to bypass Bassarid naval forces. This discovery enabled Bassarid forces to mostly prevent such blockade runners from accomplishing their illicit missions. "

It is right there in the section about the Hoenn blockade. I have obviously not denied Halian's right to respond to the blockade. I have merely cast doubt on the effectiveness of the attacks by his pokemon - I don't think pokemon attacks would be very effective against warships. I have even affirmed the existence of blockade runners in several respects. Your accusation that I have denied him the opportunity to respond is nonsense. You can hand wave all you want. It doesn't change the facts.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Newzimiagov (talk • contribs)

"Your accusation that I have denied him the opportunity to respond is nonsense. You can hand wave all you want. It doesn't change the facts" Look in a mirror sometime. (Also, the Unsigned template isn't for signing comments; use four tildes for that.) Hālian (talk) 08:38, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

This is pretty much the exact type of response which I anticipated when I said you are too dishonest to recognize why this has all happened. You caused this to happen when you chose to be a dick (when you violated your own #1 rule). Once again, you blockaded me OOC before I blockaded you IC. What you did was more egregious because I couldnt ignore it, whereas you could have ignored this (as you were advised to do in the Caputia server). This is the context which Yastreb incorrectly asserts we can hand wave away. You brought this upon yourself. And the fact that you have disregarded the posts in which I have spelled this out, once again, speaks volumes. You know you are in the wrong, but you are - again - too dishonest to own up to it. If you want the blockade to end then you need to atone for your completely diskish decision to ban me from the discord server. This is your olive branch. Take it or leave it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newzimiagov (talk • contribs)

Does this mean you consider the blockade outside the limitations of an "internal Bassarid conflict" in which "Hoenn is not invited to play"? That was the statement that got us all in here and if it never applied to the blockade, you've been distinctly evasive in clarifying the matter despite ample chances to do so. Almost like you floated a nebulous assertion of creative monopoly, panicked under the ensuing scrutiny and started moving the goalposts. --Yastreb (talk) 16:11, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

I think your angry hand waving has caused you to lose the script. Can you recall the specific event which caused me to post that original message? I know you dont think so, but context is actually pretty important. That said, I really would rather hear from Halian at this point. Surely he is capable of fighting his own battles.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Newzimiagov (talk • contribs)

I think your insults of Krasniy's memory and rhetorical skills are unwarranted; moreover, he hasn't said anything that I wouldn't have myself. The specific event that led you to call this an “internal Bassarid conflict” was my adding Hoenn to the roll of belligerents (this links to a specific diff so I'm not sure an internal link can be used here), which only occurred because you blockaded us under the flimsiest of pretenses. How dare we try to help a country that just fell apart, right?! Hālian (talk) 21:28, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

You want to talk about flimsy pretense? You banned me from the discord server (OOC blockaded me) on the basis of flimsy pretense. You chose to ban me, in a move which violated your own rule, on the basis that you personally didn't like me. That is flimsy pretense. I imposed an IC blockade because when you banned me, you adopted a formal anti-Bassarid position. That isn't flimsy pretense, That is concrete. I could not tolerate an anti-Bassarid nation, such as yours, interfering in my country's "backyard" (as Jack would put it). You adopted an anti-Bassarid position, and I responded in kind. You are the one who started this, not me. I responded - proportionally - to your actions. There are only so many ways to phrase this point. I have now re-stated this at least a few times, and you have ignored it each time, because you aren't willing to own up to your mistake. I have absolutely no doubt that you will ignore it (and/or talk shit in the Caputia server) this time as well. Because you are dishonest. Fortunately for you, people like Yastreb are willing to support and defend your dishonesty. I look forward to not hearing back from you on this point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newzimiagov (talk • contribs)

Comment Conflating OOC and IC by responding to the actions of one with retaliation under the other is never a good idea in either direction. Craitman (talk) 22:54, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree with you. But the thing is that Halian's OOC decision to ban me from the server had IC consequences. His OOC action interfered in my IC international relations. And so therefore it was appropriate to respond with an IC measure, especially since I didn't have any OOC recourse. OOC and IC were conflated because of Halian's mistake. He will never own up to this though. There is a simple solution to this problem, which will inevitably be ignored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newzimiagov (talk • contribs)

Driving well-respected longtime members of the community out by your mere presence is not a fllimsy pretense, nor is it a mistake, and you insult me gravely by insinuating that it is; instead you will note that being a dick and antagonizing other users are both against Discord server rules. Furthermore, show me a formal, properly formatted and posted Hoennese government publication espousing an anti-Bassarid position. You will find that there is not one. On top of that, your claim that the HMFC is interfering in your backyard is outright false; its catchment area is hundreds of miles away from Haifa, and Caputia was never yours to start with. Nor was it appropriate to barrel through the fourth wall with all the subtlety of the Kool-Aid Man, which is frowned upon, sometimes under the name “metagaming”, in the solgaleo's share of RP communities approximately one epsilon less than godmoding/autohitting. The simple solution is to admit that you are in the wrong and go away; maybe, just maybe, your ass will eventually heal after being hit with the door so many times, then you can sit down and be at peace. Or keep playing the part of the broken record while we all switch to MP3s. Hālian (talk) 00:31, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

So, you're actually offering two different explanations for the ban. One of these explanations is that I was being a dick/I was being antagonistic. This is false as it is the case that, even by your own admission in the Caputia server, I had not been active on the server beyond lurking for nearly two months. I could not possibly have been a dick, given that I wasn't even an active contributor. My last post - if I am remembering correctly - was a post in the art section. I simply shared a character portrait which highlighted a new technique for texturing skin. Nothing particularly offensive about that. I admit that perhaps I had been a dick in the past - perhaps as recently as September or October - but you didn't ban me at that point. You banned me after I had been inactive, by your own admission, for almost two months. This indicates that dickish/antagonistic behavior wasn't actually the problem. If it was, you probably would have banned me much sooner, at a time in which I was actually being a dick. No, your actual reason for banning me is the one you provide in your first sentence, which is that you took personal exception, on behalf of Ed (and maybe Ardy) to my presence - you don't like my face, essentially. You banned me not because I was being a dick - I demonstrably was not - but because you simply wanted to ban me. You didn't want me to be present. The problem with this is that being disliked isn't against the rules. I wasn't banned because of a rule violation. I was banned on the basis of your animosity towards me. It is worth noting, with this in mind, that Ed actually articulated his reasons for wanting to quit. Nowhere did he state, "I am quitting because I hate Bijaro's mere presence." If he wants to clarify that this is the case, he is obviously welcome to do that all on his own. Perhaps he has expressed this sentiment in the Caputian discord server, in which he is still the admin and an active participating member. I concede that there aren't any formal Hoennese government publications espousing an anti-Bassarid position. There aren't really any Hoennese government publications at all. The nation simply isn't very active or developed either on its forum, or on the wiki. Which is ironic considering that one of your last criticisms of me on the server before my ban, was that I hadn't developed my country. That was definitely one of the stranger interactions I've ever had with anyone in this community. In all likelihood, that is the most recent instance in which I behaved "antagonistically." I did take exception to your characterization of my work. With that aid, Hoenn joined the humanitarian mission within one or two days of your vitriolic response on the hub, in which you finally explained your initial justification from banning be from the server. Your decision to join the mission seemed motivated by the sense of vitriol which you espoused towards me and my work only days prior. For the record, on February 24th, Hoenn participated in a mission which aimed at distributing "aid" to the cities of Kedah and San-Luis - both countries which lie only a couple hundred kilometers from Passas, which is the historical epicenter of the Pallisican nation. San-Luis is in fact one of the former Caputian cities closest to Passas, it lies just right up the river from the Passasian border Kedah lies only just beyond that. That is well within my backyard (as Jack would phrase it). At the end of the day, there are 7.75 people in this community whose opinions I really genuinely value. The .75 is split between Ardy,Yastreb and Ed who deep down, I actually do respect and secretly kind of like despite our major differences, and despite the fact that the feeling isn't mutual. None of the major 7 have really taken exception to anything I'm doing here, and so I'm not really inclined to change tact. I'm not going to change my approach because you - of all people - want me to. I respect you least of all, because you have treated me worst of all. If I have offended you, I do not regret it. Sincerely, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newzimiagov (talk • contribs)

Also, you're evading the question. I asked if you consider the blockade of Hoenn subject to the participatory limitations of an internal Bassarid conflict in which Hoenn is not invited to play. Context doesn't alter the fact that you've posted two contradictory positions on the issue. All you need to do to clarify the situation (and shut me up) is admit that the claim of Hālian's creative illegitimacy made in your original statement doesn't cover the Hoenn blockade, and that your tolerance of his pokemon raids was shown in that spirit. This is a very simple step and you still haven't taken it.--Yastreb (talk) 21:47, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Don't we think the blockade shenanigans warrant a separate article page at this point? Considering how entirely distinct (geographically and in terms of OOC driving factors) it is from the actual Haifan Civil War? Continuator (talk) 08:43, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Orion (talk • contribs)

Please sign your comments, guys. Hitting ~ four times isn't difficult. :( Hālian (talk) 01:28, 6 March 2019 (UTC)