The TOS.... hey now....

View and discuss existing rules, new rules, policies, and regulations of the MCS.
david northworthy beckfor

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by david northworthy beckfor »

Ryan, it is not 3 years.....<br>
<br>
3 years ago would be....december 2002?<br>
<br>
at that time, the MCS was located in Delvenus, and run by Erik and Scott.<br>
<br>
at the end of may, I was still head cartographer

<p><img src="http://cdlinux.netfirms.com/sigsch.png"></p><i></i>
UEC

The TOS.... hey now....

Post by UEC »

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>
5. The MCS is owned and operated by Ryan Caruso of the United States of America. All inquiries regarding copyright and/or ownership of the MCS should be directed to him via private channels (private message or e-mail to augustinbarbone[at]aol[dot]com).<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
HO-NOW!... You may have gotten the copyright..(only because I nor Scott did it first, and because we cannot copyright it to the MCS itself), but you do not OWN the MCS... that title still falls to me and Scott as founders. We NEVER gave up the ownership of the MCS in case we ever had to revive it from he dead, or take it back from inept management. This section MUST be revised. You do currently Operate the MCS Ryan.. but you do not own it. Scott and I still hold it in trust and safekeeping in case it is ever needed in the future. And no.. don't expect me to back off or drop this issue.

<p>E. Metzler (UEC)<BR>
Duke of Brookshire<br>
"Never use a BOO//ist as a diplomat" -- GS<BR>
<a href="http://pub9.ezboard.com/bshireroth">Clicky Clicky...</a>, Tiss for your own good ya know.<br>
</p><i></i>
jdsager

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by jdsager »

One more thing about the TOS-<br>
<br>
I think the role of rec-warring needs to be addressed. Does joining the MCS bound a country to recwarring or not?

<p></p><i></i>
Liam Sinclair

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by Liam Sinclair »

Actually since he holds the copyright over the MCS macronationally, Ryan does now <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>own</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> it. Specifically, he <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>owns the MCS world map in all its forms</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. And any money made from such maps macronationally will go to the estate of Mr. Caruso for quite some time as he is now the legal owner of the idea; even if it wasn't his first.<br>
<br>
I believe this is a simple case of the dreaded "you snooze you lose" and Erik and Scott, while founding the idea, have lost it to the person who was smart enough to macronational copyright it first.<br>
<br>
PS: Macronational law trumps both micronational law and common decency <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START ;) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END-->

<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmicronationaln ... ott>Newfie Scott</A> at: 10/12/05 19:08<br></i>
extreme007

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by extreme007 »

agreed on that..... and you can fight as much as you like, scott and UEC... .but the fact is, MCS is now Ryan's.. and infact, from the time I know (which is coincident with Karnali's arrival on map) Ryan has done more for MCS than both of you combined... (atleast in the eye of public).

<p><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:red;font-size:small;">Discover, Invent, Theories, Experiment,<br>
<br>
Advance Science,<br>
Advance Extremism,<br>
(in <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.karnali.co.nr/" target="top">Karnali, Republic of</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->)</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--></p><i></i>
Master R Davis

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by Master R Davis »

<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:maroon;font-family:century gothic;"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>The Copyrighted materials will remain in the ownership of Mr Caruso for the duration of his life, and for the 70 years following his death - shall remain in his Estate. (US Code Title 17, Chapter 3, Section 302)<br>
<br>
Under USC Title 17, Chapter 1, Sections 107-122 (inclusive), the owner of the Copyright has the exclusive rights to do and authorize all of the following:<br>
<br>
Reproduce the work in copies, prepare derivative works based upon the original, distribute copies of the work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, display the copyrighted work publicly, including the individual images.<br>
<br>
I am guessing, since I wasn't there, that Mr Caruso filed a Form VA, which would offer him other rights and privileges not named above; but what I've stated here would be accurate for any Copyright registered in the United States.<br>
<br>
It does not matter how much you decide to "fight" - the Copyright was filed and has been registered here in the US, and therefore falls under the US Copyright Laws. Mr Caruso is the sole owner of the MCS at this point, unless he decides to share ownership with someone else.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE FONT END-->

<p><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://uai.uni.cc/">WEBSITE</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>
<!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/Q ... ggyban.png" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>
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Emperador Augustin

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by Emperador Augustin »

After doing this job single-handedly for over three years without so much as a little contribution from either Erik or Scott (albeit Scott has reviewed several policies in an advisory role, but not much else), I became rather sick and tired of people trying to steal stuff from the MCS or copy it.<br>
<br>
Note that you had also quit micronations during the time in which the copyright was filed, Erik. You wern't here. Nothing personal, but that's too bad for you.<br>
<br>
I put up the money. I did the work. I've dealt with all the problems this society has had to work through, and continues to work through. It is mine now in every sense of the word.<br>
<br>
I still consider you to be part of the staff as an honourary member and advisor. Same for Scott. But neither of you are the owners anymore.<br>
<br>
And yes, it is a Form VA copyright.

<p><!--EZCODE CENTER START--><div style="text-align:center"><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://p074.ezboard.com/fmicronationaln ... <!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.hometown.aol.com/augustinbar ... gpart1.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.geocities.com/microcartography"><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.hometown.aol.com/augustinbar ... gpart2.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://p202.ezboard.com/bbabkha"><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.hometown.aol.com/augustinbar ... gpart3.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://p217.ezboard.com/bminorca" target="top"><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.hometown.aol.com/augustinbar ... gpart4.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--></div><!--EZCODE CENTER END--></p><i></i>
Emperador Augustin

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by Emperador Augustin »

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think the role of rec-warring needs to be addressed. Does joining the MCS bound a country to recwarring or not?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
I don't know where you got that idea, but recwarring is neither endorsed or condoned by the MCS. I briefly tried to instate a serious recwar society using static rules and a budget-based system, but this didn't take off (because people are LAZY!). But the MCS is apolitical, meaning it doesn't involved itself in conflicts.<br>
<br>
It's like the UN staff here. We're neutral, but we still get shot at. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START : --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END-->

<p><!--EZCODE CENTER START--><div style="text-align:center"><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://p074.ezboard.com/fmicronationaln ... <!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.hometown.aol.com/augustinbar ... gpart1.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.geocities.com/microcartography"><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.hometown.aol.com/augustinbar ... gpart2.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://p202.ezboard.com/bbabkha"><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.hometown.aol.com/augustinbar ... gpart3.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://p217.ezboard.com/bminorca" target="top"><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.hometown.aol.com/augustinbar ... gpart4.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--></div><!--EZCODE CENTER END--></p><i></i>
RicLyon

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by RicLyon »

Just a little question:<br>
<br>
How would a US copyright be valid in the rest of the world?

<p><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Richard Lyon</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
Yansha Elaer Kyon gef Shan<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="font-family:verdana;font-size:xx-small;"><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Pernem kahn gef kuymal per varga sti<br>
Pernem kahn gef varga per kuymal sti</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></span><!--EZCODE FONT END--></p><i></i>
extreme007

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by extreme007 »

i think that if it refers to the same thing, then they check the date of the copyright on the two places (assuming that another person copyrights it in another country).. that way, ryan still wins...

<p><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:red;font-size:small;">Discover, Invent, Theories, Experiment,<br>
<br>
Advance Science,<br>
Advance Extremism,<br>
(in <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.karnali.co.nr/" target="top">Karnali, Republic of</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->)</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--></p><i></i>
bmsprint

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by bmsprint »

Actually, copyright legally belongs first to whomever creates the item----so whoever made the first map, he holds that copyright, and whoever created the logo holds that copyright, unless they specifically gave away the rights, and the registration is really illegal. However, trying to change the situation would be inconvenient and a waste of time, especially without proof. And you cannot copyright a name such as "Micronational Cartographic Society," that would need to be an official busienss name or a trademark.

<p>Brian Capelle<br>
Grand Prince of <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://sullifree.cjb.net/">Sullifree</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--></p><i></i>
drspangle13

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by drspangle13 »

But, does the copyright prevail in differnet countries/nations/empires if, the copyright laws are different to the copyright laws in the country/nation/empire it was originally copyrighted in?

<p>-------------<br>
dr-spangele<br>
one of the two emperors of www.new-empire.com<br>
<!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.sloganizer.net/en/"><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.sloganizer.net/en/style3,new ... <!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> </p><i></i>
Master R Davis

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by Master R Davis »

<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:maroon;font-family:century gothic;"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Through the use of several multi-national agreements and conferences, the following nations honor US copyright registrations:<br>
<br>
Albania, Algeria, Andorra, Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Austria, Azerbaijan, The Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Belgium, Belize, Benin, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Brazil, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cambodia, Cameroon, Canada, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, Chile, China, Colombia, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Republic of the Congo, Costa Rica, Cote d'Ivoire, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Equatorial Guinea, Estonia, European Community, Fiji, Finland, France, Gabon, The Gambia, Georgia, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Guatemala, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Haiti, Honduras, Hong Kong, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, South Korea, Kuwait, Kyrgyz Republic, Laos, Latvia, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Macau, Macedonia, Madagascar, Malawi, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Malta, Mauritania, Mauritius, Mexico, Moldova, Monaco, Mongolia, Morocco, Mozambique, Union of Myanmar, Namibia, Netherlands and Possessions, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Niger, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Romania, Russia, Rwanda, St. Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Serbia and Montenegro, Sierra Leone, Singapore, <br>
Slovakia, Slovenia, Solomon Islands, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Sweden, Switzerland, Tajikistan, Tanzania, Thailand, Togo, Tonga, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uganda, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Uruguay, Uzbekistan, Vatican City, Venezuela, Vietnam, Zambia, and Zimbabwe.<br>
<br>
Brian - I am fairly certain that the Copyright Office is aware of who may or may not be awarded a Copyright. But if you feel they were somehow in error, feel free to contact them, I'm sure they'd appreciate your professional opinion on the matter.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE FONT END-->

<p><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://uai.uni.cc/">WEBSITE</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>
<!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/Q ... ggyban.png" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>
<!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.sloganizer.net/en/"><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.sloganizer.net/en/style3,UAI ... <!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmicronationaln ... vis>Master R Davis</A>&nbsp; <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/Q ... ms/new.png" BORDER=0> at: 11/12/05 0:52<br></i>
UEC

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by UEC »

Ah.. so Scott and I did nothing... so.. making the damn map to begin with is nothing... founding the society is nothing...running it for several years is nothing. We are the one's who set the standards the map still works with to this day. contour, geography.. etc.<br>
<br>
I never relinguished ANYTHING ... anywhere. The only reason I never copy righted was cause I didn't have the money to do so, and never thought Ryan would pull this. <br>
<br>
I stopped being active for several months in Shireroth, that did not mean I "quit" micronations, nor does it mean I gave up claim to the MCS. Scott and I handed you the day to day operations Ryan. Cause we trusted you would not try to claim it for yourself. We trusted you would protect the organization as we had done when we ran it day to day. <br>
<br>
Basicly, what you have done Ryan is betrayed the good faith Scott and I bestowed in you. You usurped the organization for yourself.<br>
<br>
The only problem is you made everyone believe it was yours. So if Scott and I even wanted to remove you and put in new management, we couldn't. <br>
<br>
The problem is I still don't have the money to fight this. Ryan. This is some messed up stuff. And the day I see you removed as Chief-Cartographer will be a happy day.<br>
<br>
You don't even adire to the internal structure of the society anymore... You are just Chief-Cartographer, not even the Chief-Editor. I don't even know who if Chief-Editor anymore. Nor do I even know what happened to the MCS Board, which I was chairman of. And while I don't believe the MCS should be run by commitees or votes of the members, I don't believe it should be run by one man, namely you.

<p>E. Metzler (UEC)<BR>
Duke of Brookshire<br>
"Never use a BOO//ist as a diplomat" -- GS<BR>
<a href="http://pub9.ezboard.com/bshireroth">Clicky Clicky...</a>, Tiss for your own good ya know.<br>
</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmicronationaln ... C</A>&nbsp; <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/white_fire.gif" BORDER=0> at: 11/12/05 5:28<br></i>
Emperador Augustin

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by Emperador Augustin »

The copyright was something which was openly discussed prior to its being done. I had openly asked for advice and council in regards to protecting the MCS from fraud. It's not my fault you never care to participate in this project, except to show up once a year to gloat.<br>
<br>
I didn't betray anyone. I didn't conspire behind anyone's backs. I did it all out in the open where everyone could comment and say something if there was a problem. As usual, you chose not to participate.<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I stopped being active for several months in Shireroth, that did not mean I "quit" micronations<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
You very clearly posted your resignation and departure at Shireroth. Several dozen people can probably confirm this, since the original post was probably lost in the hacker attack. Regardless, you did quit. And I confirmed that over an AIM chat with Scott during the original copyright discussions.<br>
<br>
I have a lot of real-life committments too, but in three years I've never wavered in my management of this organisation. When I took over the MCS, it was a dead project. I rebuilt it into what it is today. My blood. My sweat. My sleepless nights. My money. Everything. Were you around to help? No. Did I leave you on the staff, never questioning your contributions, and always leave you room to join in if you wanted? Yes.<br>
<br>
It is very clear who is in the wrong here. And it isn't me.<br>
<br>
Now, you have an option here. You can choose to continue this rather pointless argument - what's done is done and cannot be undone - or you can start contributing to the constantly-ongoing discussions taking place within this community and provide some positive input for a change.<br>
<br>
And like it or not, the MCS has always been run by one man - namely me - because noone else can be relied upon to do the job. I don't claim to be perfect, but I always do the best I can do.

<p><!--EZCODE CENTER START--><div style="text-align:center"><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://p074.ezboard.com/fmicronationaln ... <!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.hometown.aol.com/augustinbar ... gpart1.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.geocities.com/microcartography"><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.hometown.aol.com/augustinbar ... gpart2.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://p202.ezboard.com/bbabkha"><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.hometown.aol.com/augustinbar ... gpart3.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://p217.ezboard.com/bminorca" target="top"><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.hometown.aol.com/augustinbar ... gpart4.gif" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--></div><!--EZCODE CENTER END--></p><i></i>
extreme007

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by extreme007 »

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I always do the best I can do. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
Aye... I strongly agree..<br>
<br>
Besides, UEC, like i said earlier, from about 2 years or so (since Karnali came around) I have more done for MCS by Ryan than either you or scott combined... infact, i think that even scott has contributed more to MCS during that time frame than you... or for that matter, ardashir and now bill3000 as well.. <br>
<br>
and yes, Ryan did ask openly about the copyright issue... and other things like inclusion of lovely (but that's not the point here).. you had your chance to be included.. but you didnt... you remind me of a certain individual (karnalian) that comes to karnali only because of requirements of power or something... but apart from that disappeares and blames everything on others... and when the others try to take some initiative and basically build the entire society/community again or make it more known, then comes back to take advantage of that and claim they are responsible as well... NO.. HELL NO.. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
wierd.. i never knew i would be actually supporting ryan on something!... i curse you curso!<br>
<br>
*eats icecream*

<p><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:red;font-size:small;">Discover, Invent, Theories, Experiment,<br>
<br>
Advance Science,<br>
Advance Extremism,<br>
(in <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.karnali.co.nr/" target="top">Karnali, Republic of</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->)</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--></p><i></i>
Scott of Hyperborea

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by Scott of Hyperborea »

Let me start this by saying that I have no desire at all to see you stop being the chief cartographer. You're an extremely good one, you've managed to make everyone happy, and you are very committed to the job. It's very tough and your performance has been very impressive.<br>
<br>
I know how tough it is because I ran the cartography society for about three years; first alongside Erik, and then alone with him in more of an administrative role. I updated it about monthly, dealt with endless complaints, and despite having a tough time added most of the older countries - which is one reason I find your statement "The MCS has always been run by one man - namely me - because noone else can be relied upon to do the job" to be a bit surprising.<br>
<br>
I have absolutely no desire to retake your position, and again, I think you're the best man for the job. But certain things need to be very clear. Your copyright to the map, if you currently hold it, is illegal. My guess is that no one has copyrighted the Bible yet, but that doesn't mean I could go out and do it myself. You cannot just go copyrighting something you didn't make. The MCS map landforms were made by about 45% Erik, 25% me, 10% Ras Zhukov, 5% random people, and about 15% you (you made only the continent Alexandria's on and then a couple of smaller islands). You can have that continent - I never liked it. But the rest of the map is - well, not ours, because we didn't copyright it. It's the common property of the MCS nations, which is how it was meant to be.<br>
<br>
Erik and I never copyrighted the MCS for the same reason we never copyrighted Shireroth and to my knowledge no one's ever copyrighted Babkha or Attera - that micronationalism is supposed to be somewhat enjoyable rather than people running around with lawyers trying to bully people. Can you imagine what would have happened if Sirithil had sued Archetype for copyright infringement? Micronationalism, like all good things, works on a fundamentally open source principle.<br>
<br>
I'm happy with you saying that you've copyrighted the map in order to prevent someone else, like those people from the Lovely spinoff, from going and stealing it. But if in any way you try to make it mean that you, in fact, own the map, and everyone else served by the MCS does not, then there won't be much I can do legally since I can't afford a lawyer, but I will at the very least consider you a bad micronationalist. I can't imagine Erik ever trying to found a competing organization, but if he does, I will support his right to use the map <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>he</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> made a hundred percent (in addition to your right to continue using the map, of course)<br>
<br>
And while we're talking about legality, the current situation is this: that Erik and I own the MCS (Erik as founder and I as someone he gave part share to because he was nice), and that we then hired you to do the actual work, in the best tradition of capitalism everywhere. Saying that just because you've done the actual work well, you own the thing and we no longer have control, well, that's commie-talk.<br>
<br>
As far as I can remember, the agreement has been that you agree we technically have supreme control and we agree never to actually try to use it. This has made everyone pretty confident that nothing shady will get through, and I see no reason to go changing it now.

<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmicronationaln ... orea>Scott of Hyperborea</A>&nbsp; <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://www.geocities.com/failtefraternity/eye.txt " BORDER=0> at: 11/12/05 7:56<br></i>
Emperador Augustin

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by Emperador Augustin »

The fact remains that the only reason <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>for</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> filing the copyright was in order to protect the MCS from other people stealing stuff from it. This is essential since it is a growing problem and I'm starting to find rip-offs all over the place. I'm not going to go out and sue anyone over the matter (maybe), but I want the copyrights on the maps, materials and name to be legal.<br>
<br>
I also happen to be the only one to put up the money and time to actually do it all.<br>
<br>
A copyright can only be filed by one person (or at least that's the Form VA the government provided me with), and that's where it gets into sticky technicalities. Do we want it copyrighted in my name, or do we leave it be so people can rip it off like so many people did to poor Lovecraft? I opted that it's safer in my name.<br>
<br>
The only other option would've been to incorporate the MCS as an NPO, which in turn would also require being in my name and thus up my taxes and give me an ungodly amount of annual paperwork to do. I am NOT doing that plan.<br>
<br>
I'll write up a more long-winded response when it's not 3AM...

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KieranCollins

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by KieranCollins »

At the end of the day, copyright is there for anyone who wishes to legally own an entity whether that be physical or material or internet based.<br>
<br>
Although, if I create a song, but don't copyright it, if I send it to myself in the post and have official brittish markings on it, i.e. Royal mail stamps and mrkings, then that is enough to prove I came up with the idea.<br>
<br>
Although Copyright is fairly watertight, we all know that Ryan did not create MCS, and it seems a bit strange to copyright it, when others also know that. There is a course in Law that can be taken, but I talk only from Scots Law.<br>
<br>
Anyways Ryan, I think you do a great job, and I only ever see the "Owner" guy come on and try and argue policy. You clearly own this site, not through Copyright alone, but by the hard work and effort you put into it.<br>
<br>
Would the MCS be as good, or even still alive, if not for you?<br>
<br>
Lovely recognises Ryan as the moral and legal owner of the MCS.

<p></p><i></i>
drspangle13

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by drspangle13 »

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>feel free to contact them<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
New-empire contacted them quite a while ago asking if we could set up our own copyright office, they said we could and gave us a discount if we want to copyright with them!

<p>-------------<br>
dr-spangele<br>
one of the two emperors of www.new-empire.com<br>
<!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.sloganizer.net/en/"><!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.sloganizer.net/en/style3,new ... <!--EZCODE IMAGE END--></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> </p><i></i>
Master R Davis

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by Master R Davis »

<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:maroon;font-family:verdana;"><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Although, if I create a song, but don't copyright it, if I send it to myself in the post and have official brittish markings on it, i.e. Royal mail stamps and mrkings, then that is enough to prove I came up with the idea.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
A "Poor Man's Copyright" (the practice of sending a copy of your own work to yourself), is not a substitute for Registration here in the US. There is no provision in the copyright law regarding any such type of protection.<br>
<br>
But I guess that since you study Scot's Law, you'd be much more of an expert on UK Copyright than me, so if it works there - cool!! But here, that doesnt float. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START ;) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
<br>
And now, I think, I will stop talking about Copyright Law - doing so really isnt helping the current conversation.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--></span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :b --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END-->

<p><!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://uai.uni.cc/">WEBSITE</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br>
<!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/Q ... ggyban.png" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br>
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RicLyon

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by RicLyon »

Thing is, there are three layers of copyright law in Scotland I think.<br>
<br>
First there is Scots one, obviously. Then the general UK ones, and after that European Union legislation. (And oh, international agreements too).<br>
<br>
Let's go to the European Court of Justice to try allthis. Now, wouldn't that give micronationals publicity?

<p><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Richard Lyon</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
Yansha Elaer Kyon gef Shan<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="font-family:verdana;font-size:xx-small;"><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Pernem kahn gef kuymal per varga sti<br>
Pernem kahn gef varga per kuymal sti</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></span><!--EZCODE FONT END--></p><i></i>
johndarcyofanthelia

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by johndarcyofanthelia »

Oh, what a tangled web.<br>
<br>
I think it is clear that Ryan does all the work, Ryan maintains the maps and Ryan did what he felt he had to do to protect the MCS in the real world. If someone would like to file a claim against Ryan, in a competent court, that his registration of the copyright was illegal on the grounds that it was not his own work, then nothing said in this forum can influence that. Equally, IMHO this forum is not the place to debate the issue because the copyright registration is done and cannot be undone in this forum.<br>
<br>
Now, regarding the issues themselves.<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="font-size:x-small;">2. Members of the MCS may not join another micronational cartographic society, unless it is sponsored by us [the MCS]. If you choose to rank your micronation as a member of the MCS, then that must be the sole source of maps for your country (other than locally produced maps, such as abstracts and aesthetics).<br>
<br>
3. Members may not found or establish a rival cartographic group (one that mirrors the function of the MCS that is) unless permission is granted by the MCS.</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->Nothing I have ever read on this forum is more oppressive than this. Expressions such as "freedom of association" and "restraint of trade" come to mind.<br>
<br>
We are talking about a fantasy play environment, not a professional sporting league. The English Premier League would be perfectly justified in holding its member clubs to strict rules of loyalty, because it would damage the EPL financially for Arsenal, Chelsea, Man U and Liverpool to start up their own Superleague on the side. However, the MCS involves no money (other than Ryan's real-world expenses) and there is certainly no tangible damage that could be caused to the MCS by the exisitence of rivals.<br>
<br>
Perhaps the "prestige" of the MCS might be diminished, but on the other hand competition in the marketplace is better for the consumer than a monopoly. And any prestige enjoyed by the MCS is (a) recognised only by its members and not necessarily 100% of those, and (b) likely to take a hit from the publication of these TOS in any case.<br>
<br>
I have long felt that the MCS could do things better, that the maps themselves carry too much baggage from years ago when a less-sophisticated cartographic simulation was sufficient, and that the geophysical detail of Micras is deficient and inconsistent. However, the Terms of Service as published will mean that I put myself in danger of being found guilty of "slander" by holoding such opinions. Furthermore, such opinions are doomed to irrelevancy in this Society because of Limitation #5 "The topographical/physical map and resource map are static and do not change."<br>
<br>
The very name of the MCS is misleading. This is not a society, it is a subscription service where the members are not party to the management or policy regime. I was not involved three years ago, but was this the intention of the founders?<br>
<br>
Time to step back and think.

<p>Cheers<br>
<br>
John Darcy<br>
Executive Councillor<br>
Minister for Finance, Economy and Business<br>
Minister for Immigration<br>
<!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://anthelia.net">Republic of Anthelia</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmicronationaln ... a</A>&nbsp; <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://anthelia.net/mn/flag_anim_68x50.gif" BORDER=0> at: 11/12/05 23:32<br></i>
Harvey the Blue

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by Harvey the Blue »

I find this whole thing very amusing but in pretty poor taste. Micronations started out with us little kids just ranting all day but has developed into young adults (and some not-so-young adults, and a few people that are still young and stupid) producing actually decently high-quality stuff. The MCS map is worth protecting. I can see the mindset that would want actual legal power to protect and control it. And since copyrights can only be filed under one person, someone alone has to do it. It seems like these complaints are based less on what's better for the MCS and more about who's ego gets inflated today.<br>
<br>
It's not a matter of Ryan stealing anything from Scott and Erik; he took it a long time ago by being the one to actually give a darn when you two were all gloom and doom. The MCS has developed and it's legally protected now. Not in Scott and Erik's name, no, but if they really care about the organization they would be more pleased at the protection and less bitter that they won't get eternal glory for coming up with an idea and later abandoning it.

<p><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="font-size:x-small;">Harvey Steffke<br>
<!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/saikar/">Sai'Kar's Memories LiveJournal</a><!--EZCODE LINK END--> - ranting about Shirerothian issues since fall 2004.</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--></p><i></i>
Scott of Hyperborea

Re: The TOS.... hey now....

Post by Scott of Hyperborea »

Just to clarify something, Harvey, neither Erik nor I "flaked out" and abandoned the MCS. Ryan became a junior cartographer under us for a short time, we saw he was doing a good job, the Menelmacar crisis made the two of us very reluctant to continue, so we told him he could do everything from then on.<br>
<br>
I hadn't seen what John Darcy was pointing out before, but I also disagree with it. It brings back the days of Micro-Monde too much. I certainly think staying on this map only should be encouraged, but it sets a bad precedent for the MCS to demand its members follow a certain policy.

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